CANON QUESTION

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

I usually post these in my own journal, but I figured HEY, WE HAVE A COMM FOR THAT, so I'm asking here, instead.  I recently had an interesting discussion about GHOSTS (do they show up on the Marauder's Map - answer was YES) and obviously I am writing something set at Hogwarts, which brings me to my next question or request for discussion.

In the books, Harry's classes throughout his school year are pretty fucking sketchy.  The list of Harry's classes throughout SEVEN YEARS seem very slim, so I can only assume there are classes that JKR never bothered to mention.  I would assume there to be standard classes that every British student should have, Y/Y?  Here in the US, we are required to have four years of English, four years of Math, and four years of some sort of Social Studies and (I think) four years of Science.  On top of that we have elective classes like art, drama, business studies, choir, home economics, band, and so forth.  The HP movies have one scene with an obviously very-practiced choir, so I would love to assume Hogwarts has a thriving music division (never mentioned by Harry or his friends due to lack of musical interest or talent), probably a drama department, and most likely a set of core classes common to all British Muggle schools.  We can possibly substitute Arithmancy for mathematics, but Astronomy is the only Science mentioned.  So, my questions are:

1) Are there British "core" classes common to all schools?  If yes, what would those be?  Are there magical equivalents or do you think there would be equivalents at Hogwarts?

2) What other classes (or even elective clubs or groups) do you think Hogwarts would have?

LINK TO HOGWARTS CLASSES - ALL THIRTEEN OF THEM.  THAT'S IT.  SEEMS RATHER LIGHT FOR SEVEN YEARS. 

There have already been hundreds of spells created by fic writers.  I see no reason why we shouldn't create non-canon school programs.  HELP ME, F-LIST!  YOU'RE MY ONLY HOPE!  (Mods, if this sort of thing is disallowed, let me know and I will move it back to my journal.  THANKY!)

Comments

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

*nods*

So I would assume there would be English.

Math would be Arithmancy. Do you think there would be Geometry and more advanced Maths like Algebra, Trig, and their ilk?

For Science, they have Astronomy, Herbology, and Potions. I would think Biology-type classes would be vital for future Healers. Not sure about Physics - that seems to be a Muggle science, but perhaps there would be a Wizarding equivalent...?

Ooooooh, Wizard Woodworking... that would be AWESOME. *makes list*
And yes, definitely language studies!

[ineffably-roma.livejournal.com]

Too early in the morning.....Rom needs coffee....

I believe Harry's schedule is completely filled at Hogwarts. The area I have problems with is what happens if you don't get any OWLS? What do you take?

Did you need a list of all the classes available?

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

I'll add a list. I was looking at "Harry's School Schedule" on the Lexicon and it just looks really sketchy. Some days seem really full and other days he has two classes mentioned. AND HOW DOES HE LEARN PROPER GRAMMAR WITHOUT AN ENGLISH CLASS?

[uniquepov.livejournal.com]

JKR's created a wizarding world that, while set in Britain, doesn't seem to have much in common with their Muggle counterparts (ie, I doubt there are any 'science' classes, as we would consider them) given that canon has most pure-blood wizards completely puzzled by things like autos or electricity... although 'Advanced Muggle Studies' may have included an element of science. In Philosopher's Stone, Hermione explains that logic is not a common concept in the wizarding world - so I think 'arithmatic' is off the table, as well. The UK 'core classes' are not so dissimilar to the US ones, so I think in a lot of areas you're looking at magical equivalents. I've always thought of it more that the list of classes that JKR established was their 'core' curriculum (e.g., minimum 5 years of Potions, Charms, Herbology, DADA, Transfiguration, Care of Magical Creatures, etc. until OWLs) and that anything additional would have been considered elective (along with the already-established electives like Muggle Studies, Ancient Runes, Divination, Arithmancy, etc.).

Probably best to move backwards from some of the careers JKR established? Internation relations/cooperation? Must have been a language division, then, and 'World History of Magic'? Nicholas Flamel was an alchemist, so they must have had Alchemy and some sort of Philosophy track. Plenty of authors and journalists, so writing, journalism, literature, poetry, classics, etc, are all possibilities as well. Some sort of magical law classes, the way the US has classes on the Constitution, for those wanting to go into Magical Law Enforcement? All those portraits and statues didn't create themselves, so there were most likely art classes offered, as well as music for the choir (as you already noted).

Personally, I have a kink for imagining McGonagall teaching classes on Shakespeare and Marlowe, Bronte and Tennyson, Chaucer and Byron...

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

I know, I wish she would have expanded on the classes a bit, instead of keeping Harry in the same old classes year after year. How boring would be SEVEN YEARS of History of Magic when he could have taken something else? I love your idea of Philosophy and with the proliferation of Wizarding books mentioned, I can only assume some sort of core English/Literature classes.

HAHA Yes, I think McGonagall would be awesome at that!

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

I would assume that classes like Composition would be required instead of English or Literature. Potions would be the science class, I think. He does take History of Magic, so that leads me to believe that there are other core classes like basic magical math (Arithmancy?) and composition, but they may not be continued through every year, and they may only require an ability to do certain calculations for formulas and spell-creation (maybe?) and writing competency enough to write essays. Or, perhaps, those things are included in their vocational topics. Snape may've gone over some arithmetic functions and Flitwick or McGonagall may've covered basic grammar. Spelling of spell names is probably covered by 'points off for misspelling Levicorpus, which was written in your book'.

My guesses for other classes: Theology (the magical equivalent); domestic spellwork (Home ec.); spell-creation; music; art; dance; economics or some other business class since a lot of wizards are business-owners; accounting and financial basics; public speaking/communications; magical biology (dissecting hippogryph eyes, fun!); and foreign languages (Latin for spell-creation? French, German, Russian, Italian, Welsh, Gaelic, Mermish, Gobbledygook [sic?]).

Clubs: Quodpot; Chess; art; theatre; creative writing; sartorial/clothing making and sewing; abraxian-back riding

[kiraohara.livejournal.com]

If I recall, Arithmancy was a class of its own. I think the Professor's name was Vector. *snickersnort* Despite this, I don't think Harry was ever said to have taken Arithmancy - I think it was only mentioned as an elective Hermione took starting third year. I might be wrong, though...

He would definitely need some form of mathematical education, I'd say. I'm not certain how well students would function in the adult world if they essentially ceased their knowledge of maths at 10/11 years old. They'd barely know long division...

[helenadax.livejournal.com]

I don't think they have normal subjects. They learn Maths in Arithmancy and Astronomy, some Chemistry in Potions, some Biology in Transformations and some Phsysics in Astronomy. Maybe they learn basic Latin in Ancient Runes and Art in History of the Magic. And I agree they should study English, but that's a muggle point of view; maybe they think if you're interested in Literature and things like that you can study them on your own.

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

OMG YES, I would expect Latin to be VITAL.

[jtsbbsps-dk.livejournal.com]

Now, I know I'm not from the UK, but 13 different classes doesn't seem light for 7 years imo.
In DK we have one school for the 6/7 year olds to the around 16 year olds and then most people switch to another school for the last 3 years and during those 10 years of school we have
3 different languages
math
bio/chem and physics (some schools decide to just same it under the same class, but that's rare)
history
social studies/politic-ish class
music/art/sewing/wood work/cooking (some years, not all - you can generally choose one or the other at some point and some schools don't have all the necessary facilities)
P.E.

So we'd have, like, perhaps 12 different classes during those 10 years. I wouldn't consider that 'light'.

And speaking of 'core' classes. I seriously doubt they teach grammar, math or spelling at Hogwarts. It always seemed to me that the students were expected to be home schooled in these things before coming to Hogwarts so they'd be able to write assignments as 11 year olds...

As for clubs and groups. The Gobstone or exploding snap club, a wizard's chess club, perhaps?

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to relate it to my four years of high school, during which I took:

English
Drama
Art
American History
Geography
Earth Science
Physics
Biology
Typing
Algebra
Geometry
Journalism

That's twelve different classes in four years. Additionally, my friends had:
Accounting
Language Courses
Woodworking
PE
Music (choir and band)
Home Economics
Shop (Mechanics)
And higher level math and science classes.

So that's at least 20 "available" classes in only four years, more when you consider each language as a separate class, band and choir as separate classes, and so on. I'm sure I missed some, also.

And that was at my public school in the middle of nowhere! Some high schools offer AVIATION.

[sara-holmes.livejournal.com]

I always figured that if a wizard had an encounter with a Muggle out in the wide world in a pub or something, they'd seem incredibly stupid. Coz obviously they couldn't wow a non-magical type with their incredible charms skillz, but would only have knowledge in English and maths and whatnot up to primary school level.

And I also thought Harry's schedule would look like my sixth form one - I only had five subjects but we had double lessons for them (two hours twenty minutes) in the afternoons so it worked out I only had about an afternoon and a bit free. They mention 'double potions' and whatnot in the books so I just imagined it like that.

Hmm....tis a tricky one.

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see the thirteen classes for a single year, but spread out over seven years it seems pretty redundant, unless they throw other subjects into the mix. Transfiguration/Philosphy, for example. Charms/Latin. IDEK.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I think it's fine to invent classes, especially for the older years. That's the fun of fanfic! You get to explore all kinds of new directions.

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely inventing classes, I mostly wanted to see what you guys came up with. I'm getting a HUGE list of things I hadn't thought of!

:D

[oldenuf2nb.livejournal.com]

So, where's the sex ed course??

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

IN 7,000 FANFICS.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[vaysh]

HP canon seems pretty clear about what subjects are taught at Hogwarts. The HP Lexicon lists them: Classes. Also, there's information on what week days Harry took which classes in the book timelines.

Classes are:
* Astronomy
* Charms
* Defense Against the Dark Arts
* Herbology
* History of Magic
* Potions
* Transfiguration
* Ancient Runes
* Arithmancy
* Care of Magical Creatures
* Divination
* Muggle Studies

Of course, there's always plenty of room for different classes in a Hogwarts AU. ;)

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

Plus those are only Harry's classes (or classes he mentioned). There have to be others that Harry wouldn't necessarily acknowledge.

Rambling thoughts, no surprise there

[subtlefire.livejournal.com]

See, I can picture a number of other school subjects in the wizarding world, but not so much that they'd be taught at Hogwarts. I guess I figure Hermione would have mentioned all of them at some point or another :)

A few things that I think they would have at least a seminar type of class, or a 'you need to take this 6/whatever-week course before you graduate, especially if you didn't take anything in-depth on the subject before' type of thing: sex education, home economics, basic Muggle interaction for those who didn't take Muggle studies, etiquette, personal finance, first aid...

I think options open up for the upper years. Basic spell breakdown/creation (including the study of Latin), wandlore, magical literature, studio art (special magic to making the paintings communicate?) and art history, photography, Economics, weather, some type of psychology and/or sociology, international magic, philosophy, politics.

What about a volunteer requirement? Or tutoring.

Also, what about independent study?

As evidence of my comment stalking, I have also always been impressed by the Marauders, with the amazing magical map making and their animagusness...ness. And at such a young age, too.

Maybe Hogwarts could let you do self-study for extra credit, or notation on your "permanent record", or some such.

Ooh! Is there a Hogwarts yearbook? That could be a club. As could a Hogwarts newspaper. A choir. Intramural Muggle/magic sports hybrids?

Re: Rambling thoughts, no surprise there

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

YES, THIS. We know about Quidditch and a few other clubs, but no mention of any sort of ARTS. *epic sadface*

There has to be an acting class... here's why

[lolafalola.livejournal.com]

There is a school for dramatic arts. There is Wizarding Academy of Dramatic Arts (W.A.D.A). http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_Academy_of_Dramatic_Arts

I'm not certain if that was something that was done post-Hogwarts or in lieu of Hogwarts. ... Maybe like Julliard?

Oh and here's this thing that say it was at least a club at one point: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Herbert_Beery

Re: There has to be an acting class... here's why

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

SWEET!!! Thanks for this one! :D

[luci0logy.livejournal.com]

I've often thought that it's assumed all students can write an essay when they start at Hogwarts, aged 11. There doesn't seem to be any form of english teaching, or maths for that matter. What about children with SEN? Children with a whole variety of needs would have the magic gene and be called up to Hogwarts. Can you imagine Snape differentiating his lessons.

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA Maybe differentiating by the use of "Get out of my classroom."

*shakes head*

They must have special schools?

[celestlyn.livejournal.com]

Huh...I always assumed that they only had the coarses mentioned. I figured that in wizardry, it was thought that whatever schooling that one was given before Hogwarts was sufficient or living in the wizard world. I assumed that they had mostly the same classes for at least through OWLS (5th year). Each year the same core classes would increase in complexity. (Potions, arithmancy, astronomy, ancient runes, history of magic.) They did seem to be lacking in anything literary, artistic and musical, although from the choir, I guess they had something. Yeah, I figured that there were maybe a few other classes not mentioned, but mostly the mentioned classes were their core classes. It did seem a bit inadequate.

[starlitshore.livejournal.com]

In the British school system, kids are required to take certain classes up to year 9. Then things change and they are divided into "upper/higher" and "lower" classes, and get to choose electives. They must take English, Maths, Science all the way through, but some kids work to more GCSE's than others. In A-levels, they only have to take, I think, 3 classes. They may take more, but many don't.

Don't quote me. I taught there, but didn't learn the full curriculum because I was stuck in the English department the whole time!

There were other classes available such as textiles, design, art, history, religion, geography, french, engineering, I.T., P.E., etc.

[kayoko.livejournal.com]

Policial Science or Public Relations for those students who want to work politics or inherit some family business. Personal Finance? Home Economics?


There must have been an unofficial Harry Potter fanclub that held meetings and shared pictures/stories over some pumpkin juice and snacks.

[vampisandi.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this recently.
I have an idea for a class: Magical Theory -Why things/creatures are magical? What are the propierties of a magical being? Does the magic works the same for people that live in Europe and those from America? Differences between countries and all that. XD

And this is not related at all with the topic but, I just saw a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WhhS2maFEs&feature=player_embedded

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

OMFGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wouldn't that be so TOTALLY AWESOME? XD XD XD XD

DAMMIT!!!!!!!

Now I have fifty thousand new plot bunnies!!!!! D: D: D: D: D:

[kitty_fic]

This is definitely a welcome discussion! Thanks for posting it! ♥
It's given me a bit of an idea for a series of discussions that we may explore in the future.

I really enjoy thinking about and expanding on the world that JK Rowling created. Sometimes I wonder why she didn't go into more depth. But then again she did such a good job of creating the characters that I guess the rest got a bit glossed over.

Nevertheless 13 classes does seem a bit light for 7 years.

I can't imagine that they didn't have some sort of english and math classes, as well as Latin. And I love the idea of other electives - such as choir like you said. However, I can't imagine there were any type of Science classes. The more I think about it actually, it may be that some of these extra subjects were lumped into their regular classes - such as a section on healing spells that was covered in Charms class, etc.

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yeah, I'm starting to think that the more I ponder it. They could study groups of Charms in sections - Basic Household Charms in First Year, Repair and Maintenance Charms in Second Year, and so on. (I would think Charms would be the class with the most useful everyday information...)

Classes

[samhas.livejournal.com]

As my education system was based on the UK system, I figure this might help:

We have compulsory subjects- Mathematics, geography,english language, english literature.

For the first three years you have all the above, music, art, home ec, languages (spanish and french for me), history, science (with the separate branches taught in 3rd year).

After that, you can pick your subjects of interest, but english language, literature, one language, geography and mathematics are still compulsory.

Hope this helps.

Re: Classes

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

*nods nods* So I am still of the opinion that Hogwarts would have an English class of some sort, as well as languages, and probably geography or some sort of earth science. (They have herbology to teach natural potion ingredients, why not geology to teach mineral ingredients?)

Mostly I just like thinking about this stuff. :D

[lonely-parasol.livejournal.com]

Have thought about this too, especially after noting the possible 'choir' students in 4th year and wondering why I never heard about it!

Also think it would be good to have more electives or something to choose from...and was surprised Latin wasn't vital to begin with (how else would you learn the fine art of spell creation?!)

But I personally has a kink for philosophy and physchology courses especially after the war - maybe to help everyone overcome the effects the war had on them? Hmm... *ponders*

Think I mentally supplied a list of other classes after their 3rd year, imagining all the bizarre things they could get into (a 'Finding the Animagus Within You' course, or maybe even a cooking one!) One of the many joys of writing fan fiction ♥

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

Ohhhh, I didn't think about the Animagus one, but that makes total sense when you consider the Ministry wants them registered. Easier to offer a class and teach them, then make mandatory registration for all successful Animagi. That would result in fewer rebels wandering (flying/crawling) around...

I think Magical Cooking would be a really fine art!

[sleightlysoiled.livejournal.com]

Everyone has already said most of the things I would have thought of, so I'll try not to repeat things here.

I always thought it strange that Hogwarts had rough equivalents of history, science, math, etc., but no English. However, pretty much their only homework assignments are always "x-number of feet essay on such and such." So, I assumed that all those essays were meant to be writing practice and the teachers corrected spelling and grammar. It would still be good to have a literature class, however, to learn, say, the Important Goblin Works throughout history and the Era of Amormous writing. Or something.

[red-cortina.livejournal.com]

So, I assumed that all those essays were meant to be writing practice and the teachers corrected spelling and grammar.

Yes, I was thinking this after posting my comment yesterday. You can imagine a teacher like Snape threatening to put in detention the next person unable to tell the difference between "effect" and "affect", for example. Even in my English Language lessons (in the UK) I don't remember much spelling and grammar being taught - most of my grammar comes from my German teacher who rightly thought that it would be impossible to learn German grammar without a better idea than we had of English grammar. The formal teaching of English grammar at secondary level seems to fade in and out of fashion (which seems completely mad). Eng lit does seem like a bit of a glaring omission for a writer of a book...!

[msrubyroo.livejournal.com]

Okay where I'm from in London
Maths, English, PE, Music, Drama, HIsotry, Geography, DT, RS, Art, a Language (usually French) and Science were taken by primary school kids (4-10 years)

When you reach 11 and go to Senior school science is split into Biology, Physics and Chemistry, you keep all the subjects from Primary school but some schools add another language or two (Usually from German, Spanish and Latin), schools that have the capability do ICT (some start this in primary school) and other specialised subjects like Home Ec. Woodwork etc

When you get to 14 and begin the two years of GCSEs you can more subjects to chose from...English, Maths and Science are the only compulsory subjects I believe, though schools often put aside time in the timetable for PE. Most say you must do a foreign language, but you can get out of it. It used to be that you had to chose between subjects (ie Geography OR History, but you couldn't do both) but they changed that the year I started my GCSEs (2004 I think) so you could chose from any other options provided they could be timetabled. I thing the average number of subjects taken at GCSE is 8 or 9, but some people do like 5 and other do 14 so it's a mix. Some schools have other compulsary subjects that you don't take exams in, but are seen as key to your education ie PSHE, Citizenship, RS etc

When you reach 16 you used to be able to leave school, but there are plans to raise this age to 18 I believe...in the two years of 6th form you take your AS and A levels. These are mostly in subjects you have taken at GCSE, very unlikely to be subjects you have dropped, but may include new ones you've never studied before ie Economics, Politics, Philosophy, Classics, Psychology etc. The average student will take four or five AS levels then drop one or two of these subjects and continue three or four to A level. Some pupils take extra "short course" GCSEs during these years, and some students take more or less than average amount of subjects but not by much.

So yeah, 13 subjects in English schools isn't that much of a stretch, and without "science" taking up three separate subjects ie Biology, Physics and Chemistry it would be possible to just have thirteen to chose from.

Hope that helped! XD

[msrubyroo.livejournal.com]

In terms of subjects needed, it seems that subjects at Hogwarts don't seem to prepare you brilliantly for normal careers XD Nothing to do with being a Healer is really talked about...like you have potions, but if you think of jobs as being equivalent to Muggle jobs (so Healer=Doctor) a Healer wouldn't be making the potions in the same way a Doctor doesn't make the drugs they prescribe. And they don't do biology, chemistry or maths, which are the subjects in England you are advised to take at school to apply for a medical degree afterwards.
Similarly, assuming they have engineers etc (for, I dunno, broom-making, architecture, blah) that don't just hold stuff together by "magic" they would need to know about physics and maths.
Without any mention of university in the books, it implies that there are just a tonne of apprenticeship programmes in both practical and theoretical jobs?
And the Wizarding equivalent of accountants and journalists and businessmen don't seem to have much help at school either.
Oh Dear Hogwarts, the more I think about you the more ridiculous you seem! You just teach people about everyday, and quite random, spells and Charms that will be of no use in the future. Well, that is kind of a lot like Muggle school, but without the being able to write and add up stuff they include!

[darkbudgie7.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the British school system and I don't know if anyone mentioned the following but I think:-

potions is equivalent to chemistry and herbology

and care of magical creatures covers biology

there is also history of magic and muggle studies which is another form of history or social studies

P.E in the form of quiddich

I think transfiguration and charms would be considered the equivilant of art classes

and DADA is a mix of Political science, target practice, first aid, history and psychology

ancient ruins is like studying Latin

and divination would be an elective in my opinion like drama

I didn't do any research, this is just how I associate the subjects with the ones we had at school.

Good luck!

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

*nods* I'm feeling better about their education now. Except the heinous lack of English. XD