Let's Talk About Warnings

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

First of all, we’d like to apologise for part of yesterday’s post with Kamerreon’s Advice on Writing. The post was copied in full (with permission from the original poster), including the suggestion that slash and femslash are things that should be warned for. We understand that this is offensive, and apologise whole-heartedly to those who were offended. We’d also like to offer this link to explain why, for those for whom it maybe hasn’t been an issue, and don’t understand why it should be.
+ Why warning for slash or femslash is offensive: "Normal stories" vs. slash

At the time of posting this, the original post is still in place. The mods are discussing whether to edit the post to remove issues of sexuality from the warnings section (which entails censoring someone’s work without discussing the changes with them, which we can’t do as she has left fandom and we have no way to contact her), and deleting the post in it’s entirety (which entails deleting the original discussion, as well as the parts of the post that were useful). This decision can’t be made straight away as there are quite a number of mods and we are in different timezones, which delays things, rather. But we want you to know that we are addressing it.


Comments in the post have raised some really good points about warnings, specifically about what to warn for and how. There are no hard and fast rules about this; warning for rape, chan, and character death tend to be standard for those who choose to warn, but not everyone does. We aren’t looking to set any specific guidelines here, but this seems like a really good opportunity to talk about it.

There are a whole lot of things to say about warnings. Here are a few thoughts to get you started:
Why warn? Some people dislike being warned at all, as it can spoil a really fantastic plot twist. Other people would really prefer not to be subjected to an entirely avoidable bout of PTSD.
+ Warnings - The Dead Tree Remix
+ In Defence of Author Control
+ Sexual Assault, Triggering, and Warnings: An Essay (Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery.)
+ I'm no longer a victim, so don't thread me like one!
+ Sorry, but I have to decline

Is "Warning" the best way to describe what we’re doing? What are the alternatives? What are the pros and cons?
+ A shift in usage - Content tags instead of warnings?
+ Warnings vs Trigger Alerts


Here are a few questions to get you started: How do you use warnings? Trigger and/or squick avoidance, content tags, or some combination of the two? Which warnings do you look for and which ones do you expect? Are any of them mandatory or is “choose not to warn” an acceptable creative choice for you? Do you have any HP-specific warnings? Any ship-specific warnings? Are they the same for fic you’re writing as they are for fic you read? Do you have a warnings policy?

For anyone looking for further reading, Metafandom have a Warnings tag at Delicious, which is where some of these links have come from.

Please be aware that there may be triggery comments, both here and at the links.

Comments

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Many folks have pointed out that they disagree with some of what the author wrote. Quite a few people have said in response, "Oh, I hadn't realized that was so offensive before, and now I understand this issue much better." Others have expressed different opinions, but the point is, we're talking about it.

I guess I'm wondering why the fact that people disagreed with those words and are posting about this disagreement is an issue that demands editing the original post? There are SO MANY THINGS out there on the internet that I disagree with, but they make wonderful points for discussion about why I disagree with them.

I haven't seen all the posts people have made today, but I haven't seen anything I'd really call wanky. (Feel free to link me if you think I'm wrong, but I gotta warn you that my wank standards are pretty high, e.g. "His wife is a HORSE.".) The original author is not here, and is apparently gone from fandom for good. Her feelings aren't going to get hurt, so why can't we just agree to disagree with that part of her essay and continue talking about the real issue?

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I agree with Emma. I like the discussion that has ensued.

[scarletscarlet.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm wondering why the fact that people disagreed with those words and are posting about this disagreement is an issue that demands editing the original post?

You do make a good point about there being lots of things out there with which one disagrees :).

My thoughts behind wanting an edit are that because it's presented as a guide (not *the* guide or anything, but still, a useful how-to), and that the section in question is pretty near the start and so seems fairly significant, it seems too much like an endorsement to leave it as-is. I think that to remove it without comment runs the risk of making the concern invisible again, but just personally, I'm unhappy with a how-to sitting in a slash comm with that suggestion so prominent.

That it appeared in the first place has made for some really interesting discussion, though!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm glad the mods added an edit to say that they don't necessarily agree with the entire content of the post. They could certainly make it a bit more clear which part is questionable, but the comments definitely take care of it.

One thing that this discussion has made me think about is that there are quite a few archives out there, on which I post my fics, that include "slash" and "het" in the warnings alongside all the triggery stuff. That's always annoyed me, but now I'm actually thinking I need to do something about it, like write the archive mods and ask them to reconsider lumping all of that together. I would never have stopped to think about that without this discussion, you know?

I take issue with quite a few things in that post, but that's just me. I think a lot of what she's writing about is a matter of style, and some of her "good" examples are honestly not all that fantastic. But that's another issue altogether. ;-)

[scarletscarlet.livejournal.com]

The mods have certainly been quick to respond, which is pretty neat.

Someone commented to me about the archives thing, and I'd never thought of it - I don't use any, and tend not to read warnings etc, so I've not registered it. But yes, it sounds like quite a few use "warnings" as a catch-all instead of "content" etc, even slash-friendly archives.

And yeah, there's a lot of advice in the guide that is presented as binary while really being more subjective, but I think that on the *whole*, there's a fair amount of useful info. I would hope folk would look for multiple sources for that kind of advice :).

[ineffably-roma.livejournal.com]

The problem with the archives is that many times you cannot pair up the couples. For example: some have a harry/draco but do not have a harry/scorpius. So a story that might contain: ginny/scorpius, harry/draco, harry/scorpius, does not come across that way. You get ginny, harry/draco, scorpius. It's kind of messy. I've had to write quite a few archives and ask them to add in nextgen characters two years after HPDH came out.

For the Hex Files, I can see asking them to remove m/m or the like if it's required. However, I can see THF leaving their het warning (contains) on their site. It is a slash site and people are not expecting het in the stories posted there. I don't want to say that folks are bad or are heterophobic for not wanting to read het but just that they aren't expecting it. The same for The Silver Snitch. Most sites, though, are multi-pairing, and have both het and slash. Updating their software for this feature of being able to create your own pairings is not likely.

I have one story that has a lot of het and slash in it and I keep both of them listed. I still get comments, mainly from the slash readers. LOL I do agree that I don't like them listed as Warnings, but more as "Contains".

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

Nothing that we link or post here is intended as any kind of Gold Standard, we're just trying to put things out there, and anyone can post their own links. There are actually a couple of other guides around that I must link to as well.

It would be so great if we could actually change things a bit. I've changed the header at hds_beltane to include warnings with whiteout and a separate line for 'Notes'. It'll be interesting to see how people respond to that.

Sorry for the repeated edits. It takes a special kind of dumb to undo one's own edit, and apparently I have it!