Let's Talk About Warnings

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

First of all, we’d like to apologise for part of yesterday’s post with Kamerreon’s Advice on Writing. The post was copied in full (with permission from the original poster), including the suggestion that slash and femslash are things that should be warned for. We understand that this is offensive, and apologise whole-heartedly to those who were offended. We’d also like to offer this link to explain why, for those for whom it maybe hasn’t been an issue, and don’t understand why it should be.
+ Why warning for slash or femslash is offensive: "Normal stories" vs. slash

At the time of posting this, the original post is still in place. The mods are discussing whether to edit the post to remove issues of sexuality from the warnings section (which entails censoring someone’s work without discussing the changes with them, which we can’t do as she has left fandom and we have no way to contact her), and deleting the post in it’s entirety (which entails deleting the original discussion, as well as the parts of the post that were useful). This decision can’t be made straight away as there are quite a number of mods and we are in different timezones, which delays things, rather. But we want you to know that we are addressing it.


Comments in the post have raised some really good points about warnings, specifically about what to warn for and how. There are no hard and fast rules about this; warning for rape, chan, and character death tend to be standard for those who choose to warn, but not everyone does. We aren’t looking to set any specific guidelines here, but this seems like a really good opportunity to talk about it.

There are a whole lot of things to say about warnings. Here are a few thoughts to get you started:
Why warn? Some people dislike being warned at all, as it can spoil a really fantastic plot twist. Other people would really prefer not to be subjected to an entirely avoidable bout of PTSD.
+ Warnings - The Dead Tree Remix
+ In Defence of Author Control
+ Sexual Assault, Triggering, and Warnings: An Essay (Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery.)
+ I'm no longer a victim, so don't thread me like one!
+ Sorry, but I have to decline

Is "Warning" the best way to describe what we’re doing? What are the alternatives? What are the pros and cons?
+ A shift in usage - Content tags instead of warnings?
+ Warnings vs Trigger Alerts


Here are a few questions to get you started: How do you use warnings? Trigger and/or squick avoidance, content tags, or some combination of the two? Which warnings do you look for and which ones do you expect? Are any of them mandatory or is “choose not to warn” an acceptable creative choice for you? Do you have any HP-specific warnings? Any ship-specific warnings? Are they the same for fic you’re writing as they are for fic you read? Do you have a warnings policy?

For anyone looking for further reading, Metafandom have a Warnings tag at Delicious, which is where some of these links have come from.

Please be aware that there may be triggery comments, both here and at the links.

Comments

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

I agree. I have become a great advocate of the white out code, which gives readers the chance to make an informed decision about whether to be informed, and writers the chance to surprise.

Noted. Still waiting o a couple of mods to come back, so we'll have to wait and see, unfortunately.

[valinorean.livejournal.com]

Have you ever gotten stupid anon reviews where the person gets mad because you didn't warn for that?

I agree with this. There really are some people who don't get that a fic with a (for example) Harry/Draco pairing would equate to slash.

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's any question that Kamerreon was just trying to be helpful. It's just that lumping in sexuality with incest and bestiality, which is what that list does, goves a really unpleasant message.

Surely the pairing indicates whether it is slash or het? Someone who reads a Snarry fic then gets pissy that there wasn't a warning for slash... well, I would be judging them hard. Warning for slash may be easier, but is it right?

[scarletscarlet.livejournal.com]

This is definitely reassuring, and it's great to know you guys are talking about it.

I'm looking forward to reading those links, thank you!

My own preference (2cents in) as I said on the post with the guide is for the how-to post to be edited to remove the problematic part while keeping the useful information. This also preserves the discussion in the comments regarding both the issues with the original post and the question of editing a third party's work, which means the issue isn't rendered invisible. I am no doubt biased, but it doesn't read as wank to me; more debate.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Many folks have pointed out that they disagree with some of what the author wrote. Quite a few people have said in response, "Oh, I hadn't realized that was so offensive before, and now I understand this issue much better." Others have expressed different opinions, but the point is, we're talking about it.

I guess I'm wondering why the fact that people disagreed with those words and are posting about this disagreement is an issue that demands editing the original post? There are SO MANY THINGS out there on the internet that I disagree with, but they make wonderful points for discussion about why I disagree with them.

I haven't seen all the posts people have made today, but I haven't seen anything I'd really call wanky. (Feel free to link me if you think I'm wrong, but I gotta warn you that my wank standards are pretty high, e.g. "His wife is a HORSE.".) The original author is not here, and is apparently gone from fandom for good. Her feelings aren't going to get hurt, so why can't we just agree to disagree with that part of her essay and continue talking about the real issue?

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I agree with Emma. I like the discussion that has ensued.

[scarletscarlet.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm wondering why the fact that people disagreed with those words and are posting about this disagreement is an issue that demands editing the original post?

You do make a good point about there being lots of things out there with which one disagrees :).

My thoughts behind wanting an edit are that because it's presented as a guide (not *the* guide or anything, but still, a useful how-to), and that the section in question is pretty near the start and so seems fairly significant, it seems too much like an endorsement to leave it as-is. I think that to remove it without comment runs the risk of making the concern invisible again, but just personally, I'm unhappy with a how-to sitting in a slash comm with that suggestion so prominent.

That it appeared in the first place has made for some really interesting discussion, though!

[vaysh]

Merlin, this fandom. No Friday night without a good wank. :)

Thank you for posting those links. I put the post into memories, as the warning discussion is bound to come up again and again, and these links show the various viewpoints of the discussion spectrum very well.

As for taking down the previous post, please don't. While I heartily disagree with lots of the things kamerreon says, it's the only Fanfic Writing Guide I know who makes the effort to list all the small and supposedly self-explanatory stuff that you can see done incorrectly time and again on ff.net and elsewhere (like the capitalisation and punctuation issues in dialogue). It may be a good idea to point to the discussion about the controversial parts, like the warnings for slash and such, but I'd leave it up. My two cents only. ♥

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I'm going to offer a differing point of view than the poster before me.

FWIW, I addressed this "guide" and my impressions of it in my own journal here (http://adjudicated.livejournal.com/421633.html). You'll note, in the comments, that furiosity brought up a really good point about it not always being a good idea to repost others' posts -- because here you are, now having to decide whether or not to alter another person's post because the community isn't on the same wavelength re: warnings.

I will not ever, ever, ever warn for slash, femslash, or het. IMO, if the pairings are listed, then it's common sense that those pairings might be engaging in sexual relations at some point in the fic, especially if the fic is rated R or NC-17. I won't warn for normal behavior. I just won't do it. In fact, on my fandom to-do list is to go over to Skyehawke and remove all the warnings from my fics. I feel like I appropriately list the pairings, and since I pretty much only write R/NC-17, then it's a given there's going to be sexual activity.

OTOH, I don't mind warning for triggery things. I would much rather warn for kinks and rape and mpreg and dub con and bloodletting and BDSM, etc. (I personally don't typically write any of the aforementioned triggery topics, except for dub con). I feel why not err on the side of caution? I'd much rather be courteous than choose warnings as my hill to die on. Sure, I have the absolute right to NOT warn for anything, but it doesn't hurt me to warn, and not being warned for certain things hurts other people. I personally do not enjoy deliberately hurting other people, especially when it's easily avoided.

THAT SAID, there are people who are ridiculous and entitled about their right to be warned. I'm sorry, I'm not warning for bees because someone might be allergic. I'm not warning for crossdressing. Sorry, I just won't. That's why we have the back button on our browser. I'm not going to warn for mention of the word "rape." I'm sorry, but that's an unrealistic expectation on a reader's part, to expect that level of warning. If one is THAT sensitive, then write your own safe fic. As a fanfic writer I can be as courteous as I can manage, but at the end of the day I am not personally responsible for ensuring another's emotional comfort. It's not that I don't care; it's that I just cannot bear that responsibility. No fanfic writer can.

I do think that writers who refuse to warn for anything just because they don't HAVE to are kind of dickheads, tbh. Typically writers who absolutely refuse to list any warnings, especially for very graphic fic, take themselves way too seriously. They're ridiculous in their fanfic iz srs bsns-tude. Because, honestly, it's just fanfic!

As I mentioned, I outlined my disagreements with this guide in general over in my own journal. I don't doubt that this was posted because you -- the mods -- wanted to be helpful. And I appreciate that.

I think that because something is well written doesn't make it necessarily valid or useful. It's really subjective.

:D

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

there are people who are ridiculous and entitled about their right to be warned.

Yes, absolutely. I actually prefer minimal warnings, especially if they're going to spoil the story. I'm one of the rare folks who hates being warned for character death, because then I spend the whole story waiting for someone to die. I'd rather be surprised!

Films and books don't come with warnings. (At least, not in the US.) Nor do they come with ratings, but that's a whole other topic...

That said, I really appreciate the convention of whiting out warnings so that the reader can choose whether or not to read them. I think it's a great middle road.

I don't doubt that this was posted because you -- the mods -- wanted to be helpful. And I appreciate that.

Absolutely agreed. By the time I got to it, people were already having this great discussion about warnings and what should be in them, and I thought, "This is such a great topic for discussion on a fanfic writing comm!"

And LOL, I just saw that you commented on my comment!

[celestlyn.livejournal.com]

Amen!!

[nimrodel-13.livejournal.com]

A+++++++++++++

...be my friend? XD

[celestlyn.livejournal.com]

I use warnings to tell me if there is something in a fic that would make it so objectionable that I wouldn't want to read it. For me that is mostly major character death and unhappy endings. I have some squicks but I can easily skim or avoid them. Warnings or Content, either one should be sufficient. I prefer the whiteout method. That way, one can either read them or not read them. Problem solved.

It amazes me that people want warnings for het. I suppose it's largely because the het people have been so vocal about how squicked they are about slash. Some of the slash peeps have turned the tables. I don't find either one objectionable. What might be objectionable is the way it's written. Extremely explicit or just mild. Gen-fic people don't appreciate NC-17 ratings at all, either het or slash.

As for triggers, one could virtually have a trigger for just about anything. I had an ex who cheated on me. Does this mean that I'm squicked by infidelity? No, I'm a big girl. Am I squicked by a major health issue like cancer because my sister had breast cancer? Of course not. I might appreciate knowing the content before I read it, though. I'm not always in the mood for that sort of thing. Would a suicide fic make me want to off myself? Not likely, but I'd still like to know before reading. Warnings or content notices are just common courtesy. Do a whiteout warning and it takes care of it.

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

On a personal level, that's about where I sit, too. But there are wider issues. Where you are talking about squicks and triggers, you're talking about things that are a general part of life. You are also approaching it from the default position of not haveing major issues with these things. Someone who spent their entire childhood being abused may be sent off into days worth of trauma response by something that for you or I is just a case of "I don't want to read that".

I'm not advocating warning for bees because someone was stung by one once (I think someone above has used that example), because hey, that's life. But a little respect for people who've been traumatised never goes amiss.

As you say, whiteout FTW. :o)

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

As a het writer, I have to say that I never noticed het writers being vociferous about being squicked about slash. That said, I hang with open-minded, accepting folk. I don't have time or patience for homophobia or intolerance of any kind, and the het writers I've always hung with either also write slash (like I do) or are completely slash-friendly.

I will say that I have personally (not heard about, but personally) encountered female male/male slash writers who describe female genitalia as gross, yucky, disgusting, and icky to write about. I find this to be a subtle form of self-loathing and misogyny, and I don't think it's healthy. I think it's 1000 percent totally fine to prefer slash over het as erotica; there's entirely nothing wrong with that. But to describe women as icky, gross, disgusting, etc, isn't any better than homophobic het writers who are intolerant toward queers or anyone in the LGBTQ community. Neither are acceptable, IMO.

It's a peeve of mine, admittedly. I also don't think that preferring het fic to slash fic implies homophobia or intolerance. As a heterosexual female myself, yeah, I want to read the boy/girl stuff too. By that I mean male/female, not boy/girl as in kids.

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

I really don't understand why whether or not to warn keeps coming up. It's been an issue for years, if not since the beginning of time itself. If highlight to read warnings were used, then everyone could choose whether or not they wanted to be spoiled.

Personally, I prefer warnings, and even spoilers, but I know I am in a minority on the latter. A lot of times, if the summary is questionable about something like character death, I'll skip to the end so I can know what's going to happen first. Generally, I still read it (even if there is major CD) but sometimes I don't.

However, on the issue of warning for sexuality-related things like slash and femslash, then I can understand both sides. Some people genuinely don't want to read that, although I'm obviously not one of those people. :P I would say that if the summary and pairing don't readily indicate that there is slash or femslash, then it would be polite to mention in the summary at least that there will be slash. Some people like being warned for het; I look at warning for slash the same way. Who wants to get half way into a good story and realize it's got a pairing that you just don't want to read?

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

Some of it is not so much whether to warn as what to warn for and how. And as loing as there is no Fandom Gold Standard (which there never will be, or even can be, because of how fandom is) people are goin to differences of opinion. :o)

I am totally an advocate of whiteout, myself!

The issue here on warning for slash and het is that we are effectively putting sex together with things like bestiality and incest, and saying that they are all objectionable. I get not wanting to read het, or slash, or certain pairings, but that is what the "Pairings" part of the header is for. If you (general you) hate slash, don't read a Harry/Ron fic.

I'm increasingly leaning toward having two sections, where one would warn for underage, rape, incest sort of thing, and and put everything else under 'Content' so a reader knows what they're getting into without there being that implicit "This stuff is baaadd".

And Another Opinion

[ineffably-roma.livejournal.com]

On most archive sites you cannot list the pairings like you can on LJ. For many, only the popular pairings can be listed as a couple. Here is an example I gave above in a comment.

On LJ: ginny/scorpius, harry/draco, harry/scorpius (mentioned but not in detail)

On Archive X: ginny, harry/draco, scorpius.

You end up having to list out in your summary or notes who the pairings are and whether the relationships are detailed or not. These are not searchable by the archive. *sigh* However, if I list *het* as warning/contains then people know that harry/draco is not the only sexual relationship happening. And if I'm on a Slash only Archive, and my story happens to have het in it, I post that it does.

I read slash, het, femslash, and write both slash and het. If I can't tell by the characters listed what's in the story, I'll look for the warning/contains. I'd prefer "Contains". It's not a warning but an advertisement for me.

I can see why Warning for m/m or m/f or f/f sex is wanky but I also think that in fanfic; Slash, Femslash, Het, are more genres than warnings.

As to those other warnings...I warn/advertise for all.

[mijeli.livejournal.com]

Warnings in fandom are such a curious thing. Or has the blurb text of a novel or movie ever warned you for the main character dying? Of course not. It would take away the big bang in the end.

Then again, I do not read erotica outside fandom. And I like to have warnings on potentially disturbing sexual activities.. such as hard kinks or dysfunctional dynamics.
Let's say, what makes warning for these things so important to me (in fandom) is that many things are described in graphic detail. Don't get me wrong, that's fine! It's why I click on a NC-17 rated story. ;) Only that in the novels I read, when I stumble upon a sex scene, it isn't graphic. Often it's mentioned in passing only. And that certain potentially upsetting sexual preferences EXIST, everyone knows that.
So what I'm trying to say is, the more graphic the content, the more you should warn for it. (Or that's a rule for me.)

As for the uproar caused by kamerreon's guide, I simply don't share it. I don't think warning for "slash" means equating it with other warnings, such as "rape". It's just in there as well, IN CASE anybody needs it.
How about a fanfic reader who doesn't want to see characters paired up that aren't an item in canon? It's their right as well. I think it's just decent to mention that you paired them up. (Therefore: (fem)slash warning.) To me, that has NOTHING to do with "warning" for homosexual people in the real world.. the term "slash" itself has clearly evolved in the world of fiction.

...that last paragraph being compromised if there are listed pairings in the header. And we assume that every fanfiction reader knows what "/ + rating" implies.

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

I think the mods are handling this extremely well. :) I'm loving all the discussion, which has been entirely polite and respectful, from what I've seen so far.

It's interesting to see all the varying opinions on warnings. There are things I really wish people would always warn for--vomit, head wounds, mutilation--but I know I can't expect that and it would be selfish of me to demand that people protect me from my own specific personal squicks. I put things like cross-dressing or any other non-dark kink in the same category. Reader beware, you are going to encounter things that gross you out.

I believe that warning for things that could be extremely upsetting (I'm not going to use the word 'triggering' as it has a specific psychological meaning and I while I very, very much don't ever want to trigger someone, I don't want to make them just feel really sick and bad for a while either, if I can help it.) is the right thing to do. I'll always warn for rape, chan and extreme violence. Incest. I leave those warnings for other people, because I know a lot of people want them, even if I don't need them personally myself.

I think with a lot of things, however, people just need to deal and I would very much prefer not being warned for character death or other plot elements. That's where those white out bars come in handy.

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :o)

I am all about giving people options. That's why I love the whiteout. It lets people choose how much they want to know. Yeah, I think gore should be a warning, too, actually. And an actual warning, rather than 'Content' which is a distinction that I like more the more I talk about it.

[hollys_tree]

I don't really see the problem.

I think in fandom warnings aren't used as "possibly offensive content" but rather as "it is this kind of story".

When a fic has the summary: In their 8th year at Hogwarts Harry and Draco discover something new about themselves, it doesn't really say anything. So how does the author make clear it's kink!fic? Through the warnings by including D/s, BDSM, role-play etc. Now the reader can decide if they want to read it or not, and if they don't, it doesn't mean that they find BDSM personally offensive or the people who practise it perverted. It just doesn't suit their tastes.

And I find it ok, if the warning "het" on a slash fic is used to show that the Harry/Ginny in the pairings listing is more than a passing mention but rather a huge and explicit part of the story. Also the other way round for het fic with a slash warning.

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying. I just think it's easy to say that when it's not you that's being warned for. That's where the objection is coming from. Queer people in their real lives are often treated as something objectionable, so they object to a classification that suggests it in fandom.

I increasingly think that the real problem is the label "Warning". Some things do need to be warned for, e.g. underrage sex, because in Australia you can actually be arrested for reading it. Most thing are just a question of preference, though, so a label like "Content" would solve it neatly.

[khasael.livejournal.com]

I've had a bit of a back-and-forth with one of my friends/betas on the warn/no warning issue, just the other day.

While it has never bothered me, I get that there are a surprising (to me) number of people who feel they absolutely need to be warned for bottom/top positions. I don't personally feel the position someone takes sexually has anything at all to do with their personality.

But.

I've taken to using a Warnings/Contains line in my fic header. Because I've long-since realised that what might scare one person away might very well entice another (for instance, I wrote for a fest where non-con was a common theme, and often required by the prompts). After the discussion with my beta, where I listed "bottoming from the top" in the same warnings/contains line as who was actually the top and bottom, we had a bit of a debate as to what qualified for that field.

I eventually took out the 'bottoming from the top' mention, and stated 'no real warnings (but bottom!character, if you're concerned with that sort of thing)'. I do know one person (not in this fandom) who does mind the BftT scenario, but I suppose it's not a common squick.

TL;DR

Basically, I'm torn. I'm not triggered by anything (that I'm aware of), and my list of squicks at this point is fairly small and constantly shrinking. But I have close friends who are triggered by things, some of which I write about, so I try to include. But on the other hand... What to do about things that are potentially triggery, but are also plot twists and such?

Honestly, I think I might just scrap "warnings/contains" for "contains" from this point on. But... not slash/het/femmeslash, because that should be in the pairings line (which is also in my post title), and I in no way think any of those should be "warned" for. Exception being on my masterlist, which is multi-fandom--so far, femmeslash is mentioned, but only because one of the characters has a name that is not immediately clear as to gender of the character).

[inamac.livejournal.com]

There's a reason I don't post on ffnet, and the age and sensitivity of the readers is one. I came from a fandom (pre internet) that didn't use warnings (though all the fic was slash, so that problem never came up), and it was the job of the editor of the zine, or the person passing on the story to describe the outline the content ("I know you don't like deathfic, so don't read this one.")

My real problem with warnings is that quite a lot of my work has a 'twist' that a warning would telegraph. I can cover this by warning for 'apparent death', or 'implied rape' but I still feel that I'm shortchanging the reader of the surprise ending.

Whiteout (at least on the LJ post) seems to be the only solution.

either that or I just label everything 'mindfuck'.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

either that or I just label everything 'mindfuck'.

LOL! :-D

[khalulu]

Posted Successfully
Thanks for the very thoughtful-looking list of links. I've learned something about white-out warnings - because I hadn't seen them much, and I'm new, I sometimes had the impression that below the white-out was something so awful you might not even want to see it mentioned in a warning. (Scary!) Obviously, wrong! It's more a way to post potential spoilers, sounds like. And yeah, sometimes I don't want to know and spend the whole fic waiting for something to happen, or have the surprise taken out.

As many others have said, I don't think it's appropriate to put m/m slash or femslash or het as "warnings" along with rape, bestiality, necrophilia etc. It feels like a slap. Reactionary politicians in the US "warn", every time gay rights issues come up, "next they'll be trying to legalize pedophilia!"

Yay for interesting discussion.

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

It's funny how alarming things can be when you're new. I was kind of scared of commenting when I first started out in fandom.

No, the white out is just a way of giving choices. Sometimes it hides warning for fluff.

Sigh, yes. Because a relationship between two consenting adult is just like abusing a minor. Arseholes.

Hope the links are helpful. We tried to get a fairly balanced selection to represent the full argument. :o)