ratings - what's an R vs. an NC-17?

[khalulu]

Hi all - just curious, since I'm new to submitting and posting fics, and many places ask for a rating - is there any consensus on approximately where the line is between R and NC-17 in a slash fic that has sex but isn't PWP?

Comments

[vaysh]

My definition: if there a full-fledged sex scene that names cocks and pussies and arseholes, it's an NC-17.
If sex is mentioned, even sexual acts, but not described in a full-out scene, it's an R.

[kinky-kneazle.livejournal.com]

This is how I work as well. I don't know if that counts as a consensus or not.

[khalulu]

lovely icon!

[kinky-kneazle.livejournal.com]

Thank you! It was created by icon_goddess, who is no longer around LJ, but I think she left her community open for exploration.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Yep, you're exactly right. That was basically our mantra when I screened and dinged fics for Fiction Alley. You actually could have a full description of sex act for an R rating, and have the fic pass through the screening process at FA, but the sex had to be very specifically constructed.

[naturegirlrocks.livejournal.com]

I think R has a build-up to sex and then describes the act without using foul language or too intimate details. R is also I you use F-word or bad language in a non-sex story.

In pictures I usually say that an erection is R, but touching the erection is NC-17

That's my rules in my journal and comms anyway :)

[inamac.livejournal.com]

There's no reason why an NC17 fic shouldn't have plot! (I hope mine do.)

A lot depends on the place where you're posting, but in general I see R as fairly 'vanilla' descriptions of sex (and violence) while NC17 involves more graphic fetish material (in sex fic) and physical pain (in violence fic).

[khalulu]

oh, I wasn't at all trying to imply that NC17 stories didn't have plot and characterization! I've read a lot of great ones! I'm wondering about a story with semi-detailed, fairly vanilla sex - integrated into a scene, not just mentioned but also not dwelling at length on every detail. Sounds like it might be on the border depending on who you ask?

[celestlyn.livejournal.com]

Huh....

I thought I had read that NC-17 graphically described sexual material while R might describe it less graphically or it might contain graphic non-sexual material, as well. Graphic violence, torture...etc.

Maybe not.

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

I always thought NC-17 meant "Not recommended for children under 17" so that's how I rate everything with any adult content. I've never used an R rating.

In my own universe there are only three ratings: G, T, and M. (General, Teen, and Mature)

Levels of rating beyond that seem kind of pointless, but I've always been opposed to rating systems, anyway.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I rate all my fics NC-17 or Adult because they have adult content and I presumably don't want anyone under 18 looking at them.

I also think ratings systems are rather silly.

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

Maybe we should have a rating system that lists everything:

F - fondling
U - underaged
C - cock
K - kissing

Whoops, now I have to warn for my rating system... XD XD XD

[morgana-fire.livejournal.com]

That made me chuckle this morning. My brain is still slow as it is trying to encompass the coffee I'm drinking to actually comprehend what word you had used LOL!

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

LOLOL I'm still on my first cup. NEED MOAR. :D

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

LMAO :))

K - Kink
I - Intercourse
S - Spit
S - Swallow

I like our new ratings system! Brilliant idea! :D

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

P - Penetration
O - Orgasm
R - Rimming
N - Non-con

I COULD DO THIS FOREVER. XD XD XD

[sordid-humors.livejournal.com]

WIN

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Hahaha!

F - Fumbling and/or Fucking
R - Rutting
O - Oral
T - Tongue

I can't believe I'm being so naughty! ;p Especially on a Sunday! Shame on me . . . ;)

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

I dunno why but I'm in the mood to write porn now... XD

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine why! :D

[khalulu]

so glad the discussion has been useful!

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

*giggle* I like that system better.

[khalulu]

well, I started this because the Smoochfest submission form asks for a rating - but they didn't say WHICH system! Just so you give the key to the system, so people know which F or S is meant!

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

LOL! I've never seen anyone (outside of ff.net) complain about ratings. Usually they just focus on the WARNINGS, so I've always let people rate it however they like.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

*likes*

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

XD

Those ratings almost gave me a bunny. *cough* (Must not write underaged fondling and cock kissing...)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Oh yes you must!!! *enables*

[dysonrules.livejournal.com]

WHAT WAS I THINKING? OF COURSE I MUST!

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I used to ding fics for Fiction Alley. We drew the line between R and NC-17 with the description of bodily fluids and genitalia. I'll show you an example. This is NOT a PWP fic, fwiw.

NC-17 (Skyehawke):

Potter was still tense, but Draco felt Potter's grip over his own hand relax a touch. Taking this as permission to continue, Draco resumed stroking Potter's cock, pulling and jerking lightly at the head before sliding his palm back down Potter's hard length. He worked Potter's erection until Potter's cock was stiff and unrelenting in his hand, and Potter began rocking clumsily under his touch.

"Ah, God." The words drifted from Potter's mouth, unbidden, and he let his arm fall from across his face onto the bed, and Draco curled in sideways against him and laid his head on Potter's bicep. The knuckles of his free hand brushed against the warm slice of skin at Potter's waist, where he'd pulled Potter's t-shirt up. Draco felt a fine trail of goose bumps rise under his touch, and imperceptibly he lifted his chin until the divergent scents of clean, wholesome soap and well-worn shirt assailed his senses. His breath puffed warm against Potter's shoulder as he worked Potter's cock. "Oh." Potter sighed then, and turned his head, looking down at Draco. The tips of their noses met clumsily, prompting Draco to lift his chin. It had happened reflexively, for Draco neither kissed nor fucked boys, but when his bottom lip accidentally brushed against Potter's, his own cock burgeoned and grew painfully hard within the sturdy seams of his jeans.

Draco felt Potter's breath hot and muggy against his mouth, and his damp, keening breaths urged Draco on. He'd established a firm, steady rhythm -- balls, cock, head -- but when he next rubbed at the tip of Potter's cock, Potter groaned, and Draco thought he heard him hiss, "Yes."

and the same passage as an R (Fiction Alley):

Potter was still tense, but Draco felt Potter's grip over his own hand relax a touch. Taking this as permission to continue, Draco resumed his stroking, pulling and jerking lightly and sliding his palm all around. He worked Potter nimbly, until Potter began rocking clumsily under his touch.

"Ah, God." The words drifted from Potter's mouth, unbidden, and he let his arm fall from across his face onto the bed, and Draco curled in sideways against him and laid his head on Potter's bicep. The knuckles of his free hand brushed over the warm slice of skin at Potter's waist, where he'd pulled Potter's t-shirt up. Draco felt a fine trail of goose bumps rise under his touch, and imperceptibly he lifted his chin until the divergent scents of clean, wholesome soap and Potter's well-worn shirt assailed his senses. His breath puffed warm against Potter's shoulder. "Oh." Potter sighed then, and turned his head, looking down at Draco. The tips of their noses met clumsily, prompting Draco to lift his chin. It had happened reflexively, for Draco neither kissed nor fucked boys, but when his bottom lip accidentally brushed against Potter's, he felt himself grow painfully hard against the sturdy seams of his jeans.

Draco felt Potter's breath hot and muggy against his mouth, and his damp, keening breaths urged Draco on. He established a firm, steady rhythm and then Potter groaned, and Draco thought he heard him hiss, "Yes."

As you can read, the first example is a more graphic description of a hand-job, with cock-cock-cockity-cock used liberally! The second example is more segue and leaves a little more to the imagination.

NC-17 vs R for violence is a little more difficult to pin down. When I dinged fic, I only once dinged a fic for being NC-17 for violence; it was really, really gratuitous and graphic. Graphic descriptions of violence or rape or abuse would probably call for an NC-17 rating if you were trying to post at a more conservative archive like Fiction Alley, but, otoh, if you're posting at Skyehawke, then you'd probably be fine giving violence an R rating.

I'd say if you're truly unsure whether something is R or NC-17, then it's best to err on the side of caution and call it NC-17 and then do a rewrite to an R.

Hope this helps. :)

[khalulu]

nteresting - a specific example like that is very helpful for understanding how that particular place approaches it, thanks. That R didn't leave much to the imagination!

At one place - skyhawke, I think - I had to get past a warning for "extreme sex or violence" to read fics that just had explicit sex. If they hadn't been recced or I hadn't read the author elsewhere, I'd have thought that rating was a warning for graphic torture/non-con etc., and stayed away.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Yep, that's Skyehawke. They have the X S V codes -- extreme sexual or violence content. The problem is that it implies something is violent when perhaps it's just explicit and there's a huge difference between the two. Just because something is explicit doesn't mean it's extreme. Someone can use very graphic and blunt terms to describe very vanilla sex. So I always take the X S V codes with a grain of salt and read the fics I want to read. I can always hit the back button if they turn out to be genuinely creepy :))

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's interesting! I think I would personally have labeled the second one NC-17 (or M or whatever) and I wouldn't even have tried to post something like that at FA.

Obviously this is why I have only 3 fics posted on FA, heh.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I've never had a problem posting adult fic to FA as long as the wording is selective. I think this fic gets the FA "Are you over the age of seventeen" screen before a person can read it. I mean, all of my fics have adult themes and FA has taken them all so long as I refrain from cock/cunt/clit/dick etc and don't over describe semen. I think I have a couple fics that I have not attempted to post to FA because I know they'd be dinged and I don't particularly want to change them :D

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I wanted to mention, but ran out of character space, that the description of an orgasm will also toe the line between R and NC-17. For R, you can say "he came." For NC-17, you might say, "he came in a hot, sticky mess" or something like that.

A lot of the slang words for genitalia can get a fic dinged for NC-17: cock, cunt, pussy, dick, cum, clit, etc. Personally, I think this is kind of silly, but there you have it.