[identity profile] scarlettlilly.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] hd_writers
I'm almost afraid to admit this in a Harry Potter Community for fear of being stoned but....I haven't read the Harry Potter series. THERE.

More recently, I'm starting to wonder if that's one of the reasons I'm having difficulty with characterization. I mean, reading the books would allow me to know the characters more intimately and maybe then, I'd have a more solid/realistic image of who they are? (I do think it's strange that I haven't read the books and write fanfiction, but that's a story for another post.) It's been a little less that a year now since I took a dive into writing fanfiction and I thought that characterization was something that would come with experience. You know, the more I write, the better I would get to know the characters but that's only happened to some extent. Sometimes they still feel like strangers to me and even when I finally work something out, Harry and Draco feel like cut and paste characters. Like there's nothing to them but the fact that one is a noble Gryffindor and the other a selfish Slytherin.

I don't mind reading or writing fanfiction where the characters are a bit OOC--you know, realistically. (That's a bit of an oxymoron, but I hope it still makes some sort of sense.) But I think it's important to know the characters well enough to be able to tell their story like they would.

I WANT THEM TO BE REAL!!!

So, the million dollar question: does anyone have advice on characterization and character development? Showing vs. telling?

Much thanks. =]

Edit: I've seen the Harry Potter movies more times than I dare to count and I've been reading Harry Potter fanfiction for five plus years. For some reason, I thought that was a good enough background =/. After reading the books, is there anything I should know about characterization? Any tips? Not reading the books is a major fault, I admit, but are there rules and techniques?


READING.

Date: 2011-05-13 07:35 pm (UTC)
lordhellebore: (harry draco)
From: [personal profile] lordhellebore
advice on characterization

Read. The. Books. Sorry, but that's all I've got. And I'm a bit O_o right now.

Date: 2011-05-13 07:44 pm (UTC)
vaysh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] vaysh
I can but second what the Lord Hellebore said. Sorry. Characterisation of the main characters doesn't come with writing, in my experience. It's one of the few things the writer needs to know before she sets out on writing the story.

Date: 2011-05-13 07:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zeitgeistic.livejournal.com
I'm just curious why you haven't yet read the books. Any particular reason?

Date: 2011-05-13 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] norton-gale.livejournal.com
I just read one of your short fics, and I don't mean to offend you, but I couldn't recognize the characters from the books in your writing - they seemed somewhat generic. Getting to know the characters is the first step to characterization, and if you're writing fan fiction, that means being familiar with canon. People read fanfiction to spend more time with the characters they've grown to love, and if you're not giving us recognizable versions of those characters, you're not writing fanfiction.

If you take the time to read the books and learn about the history that Harry and Draco share, you'll understand their fanon romance so much better, and I guarantee your characterization will improve.

Date: 2011-05-13 08:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zeitgeistic.livejournal.com
I don't think so. The movies are vastly different from the books.

Date: 2011-05-13 08:19 pm (UTC)
vaysh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] vaysh
But after reading the books, doesn't the writer still have to experiment with getting the characters right?
Absolutely. Everybody has to find their own Harry and their own Draco. BUT within the limits of what the books tell us about them. I actually thought about what writing tips for characterisation I can come up with, and one that I've been told over and over again is: read! A good writer is almost always a good reader. ♥
Edited Date: 2011-05-13 08:21 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-05-13 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zeitgeistic.livejournal.com
They're big, but the American editions seem to all be in a font that is 2 or 3 pts. larger than typical book fonts, presumably for children's eyes. And it's not like they're Ayn Rand books. You should be able to read one in a week, at most.

Date: 2011-05-13 08:20 pm (UTC)
vaysh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] vaysh
People read fanfiction to spend more time with the characters they've grown to love, and if you're not giving us recognizable versions of those characters, you're not writing fanfiction.
That. *nods*

Date: 2011-05-13 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] inamac.livejournal.com
The movies are very different from the books, and the characterisation is also different - if you want to write movie-canon (and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you make it clear that that is what you're doing), then you need to re-watch every scene you intend to use and, ideally, write your own transcript to get the voices right.

If you want to write book-canon then do exactly the same thing. Read the books. Then go over every scene that has information about the characters that you might need for your story.

Or give up and go and write original fiction.

It's much easier.

Date: 2011-05-13 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eanelinea77.livejournal.com
I agree with everyone else who's mentioned you should read the books. Reading only fanfiction is actually a bad thing to do if you want to write the characters. As lovely as authors' stories are, sometimes what you will see is their interpretation of the characters, whether the characterization is right or wrong.

The movies aren't good to go off either. I'm not saying the actors are bad or anything, but it's just not the same.

Plus you miss out on so many of the little nuances from only watching the movies and not reading the books.

If I were you, I'd say definitely stop writing fiction for the moment, and read the books. Then you can write to your heart's content. You'll find most Harry Potter writers have read the books at least twice.

Date: 2011-05-13 09:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] undrsomestairs.livejournal.com
Definitely the best advice would be read the books. Don't be intimidated by them- my mom's a first grade teacher and one of her (albeit brighter) six year olds read all seven books in about three months. You can handle it. And these are the kinds of books that make kids who never liked reading love to read, if you already like the characters, you should have a great time. Take some time away from reading/writing fic and start on those books asap. :]

Date: 2011-05-13 11:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crazyparakiss.livejournal.com
All I read was that you haven't read them, all I can say to that is
DO IT NOW!

Lol. Honestly compared to the movies the books would help you more with characterization, although to be honest I have almost had canon destroyed in my memory by fanfiction. I will have to go back and read the books soon.

OOC is fine in my opinion and sometimes I search it out because I get tired of the Gryffindor v Slytherin crap. Which is even in the OOC fics. Honestly I think you could probably develop characterization by just watching the movies but, if you want canon, you'd be better off reading the books for a more in depth feel. Like, canon wise, Draco would never be good to Harry. He's not noble, he's a slimy putrid bastard and it's hard to find an actual Draco in fandom. Not that I don't like him a bit kind and boning Harry, but that's kind of the truth.

As far as writing I say just go with what feels right, only you can make your rules. Sit down, get inside their heads, and try to feel what you want to express. My favorite writers are the ones who get inside of Harry and Draco's heads and make them realistic people who I feel as if I've met. :)

*\o/* Rooting for your success hon!

Date: 2011-05-13 11:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crazyparakiss.livejournal.com
Vash you are amazing! Write us some tips!

I need to re-read the books. I think the fandom has warped my initial perspectives of Harry and Draco. Gotta get back to the basics.

Date: 2011-05-14 12:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] undrsomestairs.livejournal.com
Well, yeah. You've got books to read instead. Fic will still be there waiting for you when you're done.

Date: 2011-05-14 12:59 am (UTC)
kitty_fic: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kitty_fic
In my opinion, in character is a bit different for everyone. And there is fanon vs canon - which are certainly not always the same thing. Sometimes I enjoy reading and writing fanon and other times I search out canon characterizations.

But in order to truly know the characters, you definitely do need to read the books. Then you can form your own opinion on who these characters are to you and you will be able to separate fanon vs canon.

Read the books and then the boys definitely won't feel like strangers to you.

Really, the books are easy and fun reads. They may seem big but they go fast and if you already have a love of the movies and the characters, then they should hold your attention and you'll likely breeze right through them.

Date: 2011-05-14 01:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crazyparakiss.livejournal.com
What is fandom for if not for lifting others up and helping fellow fans when they need us most! XD

Date: 2011-05-14 01:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crazyparakiss.livejournal.com
I agree with Kitty on the books, plus JKR is a BAD ASS who wrote an awesome series! If you like Harry in the movies you will love him in the books!

Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-14 08:57 am (UTC)
ext_147827: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sordid-humors.livejournal.com
I'm going to defy the norm: don't read the books. Specifically, don't read J.K. Rowling. Her writing style isn't going to help you create characters capable of reaching into second, third and fourth dimensions. Your own mind and writing skill is what makes that happen, not your intimate knowledge of cannon details. As you suspected in your initial post, it is a matter of writing ability, pure and simple.

(Before I get flamed for this: up until a few months ago, I made my living as a ghost writer. I fixed other people's novels; oftentimes, I had to finish them, too. Now I'm taking time off to finish my own epic noir. I fully acknowledge that my experiences have created opinions that are not commonly shared in the world of HP fandom writing. Please take me with a grain of salt... and possibly a shot of tequila. I exist well outside the norm.)

In order to weave complex, human, identifiable characters, one must understand the levels of characterization, the Shrek-like "onion layers" that make people the complicated beings we are. Read some books that are character-driven rather than the action-driven HP series. Off the top of my head, I'd say anything by Terry Goodkind or Isaac Asimov should do the trick. You'll see the way these authors create texture in motives, actions, quandries and dilemmas that require very little "cannon-like" back story in order to connect with a character on a personal and intimate level.

Fleshing out a character has very little to do with the kind of details Rowling provided in the HP books--hair color, height, regional dialect (and while some of these things have been lost in the films, it's not as though there was a wealth of information to begin with!). These kinds of details rarely make us who we are. If you start thinking of the characters in terms of value systems, interpretation and bias, coping mechanisms and secret desires... then you're getting close to a deep and passionate characterization.

I am absolutely the odd man out, here. The cheese stands alone.

Cheers!
sordid

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-14 12:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com
JKR provides infinitely more details than hair colour, region etc.

"If you start thinking of the characters in terms of value systems, interpretation and bias, coping mechanisms and secret desires... then you're getting close to a deep and passionate characterization."

I agree completely. And all those things can be found in the major characters in the HP books. And if you're going to write Harry Potter fanfiction, you need to have read the books so you can understand the characters in all their layers and replicate that in your own writing.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-14 07:50 pm (UTC)
ext_147827: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sordid-humors.livejournal.com
See, I don't believe Rowling ever reaches that deep level I described with her characters. To me, her work feels flat and one-dimensional. That is simply my opinion. I write fanfiction in order to fill in what I feel are gaping holes left in her characterization. For scarlettlilly, I believe there are better books and better writers from which an aspiring writer can learn about characterization and plot.

I'm not a Harry Potter fan and I'm not a Rowling fan: and you don't have to be either in order to be a good writer or to write good fanfiction. You don't have to replicate the original author's style, tone or characterization in order to write fanfiction--you just have to be a good writer with something to say (sorry, I'm steeped in the school of didactics). More than anything, you should figure out what point you want to get across and structure your plot and characters around that aim.

Read voraciously. Go ahead and read the HP books if you want to--I'm just saying that, as a student of writing, you shouldn't limit yourself to Rowling's brand of characterization because there are a multitude of other options. Find what works for you. Just remember, like Kitty said above, that you are entitled to your own interpretation of the characters (be they from the books, movies, or your own head). The joy of writing is that you don't have to follow Rowling's rules--or anyone else's.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-14 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com
We disagree about the level of complexity of JKR's characters. She's not Martin Amis, but her characters are far from one dimensional if you read beyond the surface. They have strengths and flaws, they grow and change, they struggle with ethical choices in different ways. They have both innate qualities and qualities that resulted from the ways they were raised, and sometimes those things clash. They things they do on the surface sometimes contradict what's going on in their minds.

And this is a Harry/Draco com. It's a com specifically for people who want to write about HP characters. There are plenty of people in fandom who want to write OC's with Harry and Draco's names and pay no attention to what the characters are actually like in canon, but I personally find nothing interesting about that at all.

I'm in HP fandom because I want more Harry and more Draco and if someone hasn't even read the books or if she's just making it up as she goes along because she thinks she can do better than JKR, then they are just going to be wasting my time.

If you want to be a good writer, then yes, absolutely, read everything you can get your hands on. If you want to be a good Harry Potter fanfic writer, than you have to at the very least have read the books or you're just writing OC with canon names. Some people like that sort of thing. I don't at all.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-15 07:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com
fyi -- bad characterisation is my biggest pet peeve in HP fandom. It makes me all growly and my comment below reflects that.

Wrong in what sense? There are no official fandom police. There used to be coms where people would spork bad-fic, but I think they've all died out. You won't be struck by lightning if you write fanon instead of canon. You won't be hounded out of fandom if you write unrecognisable characterisations. I don't think 'wrong' is the right word. There's nothing ethically wrong or even technically wrong about writing fanfic characters OOC. And you'll even find many people in fandom who don't give a damn.

So, yeah, preference. And I'm starting to wish people would warn for "not giving a damn about canon characterisations" in their headers so I wouldn't wasted my time starting to read their fics. As far as my personal preference goes, however, ignoring canon characterisation is ignoring the rules of the game. Part of the fun and challenge of writing fanfic is taking already created characters and someone else's world and re-writing them in different circumstances. I'm here because I love the characters and I love the world. If I hated them, I'd be elsewhere.

Person above blatantly said that she only writes HP fan fic because she thinks she can do better thank JKR. It's not the first time I've seen someone say that they write fic because they want to fix her mistakes.

"We are fans of HER work, so we write our own versions of her fiction." Yes. Exactly. And if you ignore the canon work then you are writing slightly derivative original fiction, not fan fiction.

The characters don't have to be exactly as JKR wrote them. Few people can accomplish that. I can try, but I know I'll never get it exactly right. I just want demonstration of a good effort. I don't want Harry killing, I don't want him telling Ron and Hermione to fuck off after the war, I don't want him without a sense of humour or fearful or weak. When I read him, I want to believe I'm reading the same Harry from the books as much as possible. And while I'll read well-written fanon fics now and then, canon is why I'm here. So if I start a fic and don't recognise the characters at all, yeah, I'll stop reading pretty quickly.



Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-15 07:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com
"We all know that Harry has a hero complex, but how does that affect him and everyone around him? How does he deal with it and how does his mind process those situations?"

And if you read the books, you'll get answers to those questions.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-15 07:27 pm (UTC)
ext_147827: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sordid-humors.livejournal.com
Cannon vs fanon is a huge issue now-a-days. The way I understand it is that, the more fanfiction one reads, the more one's original perception of the characters becomes warped. We forget certain details, like Draco's insecurities or Harry's hair-trigger temper as they are less written about in fanfiction. Fandom lets the characters slide into comfortable boxes in order to be more easily swallowed... and then manipulated to suit the author's aim.

I think it's possible to keep every detail Rowling ever gave us and expand from there, flushing out the characters in the direction a fandom writer chooses. If you'd like a concrete example, there's my epic NC-17 project Conscience (http://dh-conscience.livejournal.com/profile/). Reading through to chapter 21 will give you a fair impression of what I mean by character-driven narrative and hidden didactic aims (there's also a rated R version on fanfiction.net because I'm not sure how old you are).

Whether you want the characters the same as the books or different is up to you as a writer! Some people will only read cannon-based fics. Some people prefer non-magical AU's (and I've read some great AU fics in my day because they were written by talented and engaging authors). Bottom line is that yes, it's okay for the characters to be different... bearing in mind that less-than-cannon characters may cost you some readers or get you a few flames.

Life is too short. F*ck the man. Write what you want to write and don't worry about other people's expectations. That's fanfiction.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-15 08:03 pm (UTC)
ext_147827: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sordid-humors.livejournal.com
A great resource for you to check out would be Wayne C. Booth's "The Rhetoric of Fiction." In it, he talks about the structures that exist in great fiction; objectivity, types of narration, control of information, confusion and distance, just to name a few. There's an entire chapter on "showing versus telling," which I know you'd mentioned as a concern in the original post. I think the tactics he explores could help you in your quest to create more complex characters and deeper narrative.

As far as making your characters realistic and more easily identified with as people... I think that's something that will come with time the more you write. I'd recommend finding a good beta reader, someone who can sit down with you over IM and ask the important questions, like "why does Harry say this huge paragraph instead of just blowing up and storming off in a rage?" or "wouldn't it be more realistic if Neville stuttered here?" Sometimes it helps to have an outside view of your scenes and characters. As we write, we get our heads further and further into the Pensive of our narrative. It can be helpful to enlist the aid of someone who is not buried quite so deep in the plot; often, they catch things as "out of character" that the writer may have missed. I believe there is a lj comm for HP betas just chomping at the bit. It may also happen that you make friends through postings like this or commenting on other people's fiction. I find that the best betas are people you can also call friends.

My last thought (I swear) relates to your questions about Harry's White Knight Complex. I think it's important to ask these sorts of questions--even if they have been answered in the books. There can be more than one answer. Sometimes the best fanfiction sheds light on existing events in cannon, giving a new and more personal perspective on past events. The more you ask these questions, the richer your writing will become. Each question is something to explore within the character's mind. I think the best writers are the ones who are always asking questions, always seeking a new and deeper answer, never assuming that what they've been given is the whole and complete story.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-16 06:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com
I know more than enough people in fandom who put in the effort and come close enough to keep me happy. I know a handful who write their fic characters in ways that feel lifted straight out of canon. I love that. I don't need carbon copies, but I do need to believe that I'm reading about Harry and the other characters.

Everyone needs a beta. And good betas do focus on characterisation.

I agree that part of the fun of fanfiction is filling in gaps or elaborating on areas that we wish were more fleshed-out. But you have to have a solid understanding of the world and characters before you can do that. And I don't relate to wanting to play in the sandbox of a writer whose work I don't enjoy at all.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-05-17 02:02 am (UTC)
ext_147827: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sordid-humors.livejournal.com
You hit my intentions on the head, scarlett! The HP novels fill me with questions and no answers. They leave me adrift in a murky sea of missing synapses, broken sentience and fading, indistinct illusions; gossamer feelings glimpsed as though from a great distance--glimpsed and not entirely felt. (F*CK, I read too much Faulkner in grad school!!!)

When I read about magic, I want it visceral and vivid. That's what I do with my HP fiction. That's another place where Rowling left me to fall flat on my face. Again, that's just me.

And wouldn't you be embarrassed if I turned out to be a man?
^_^

Date: 2011-05-19 02:38 am (UTC)
khalulu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] khalulu
Character is shown by behavior, behavior grows out of personal history, at least partly. You'll get a fuller and sometimes different picture from the books than from the movies. (For example, Draco in the movies comes off as a bit flirty toward Harry in the origami cranes scene, which is quite absent from the books.) So as you read the books, think about how the characters behave and what history they go through, what histories develop between them, and then extend that to the new situations or points of view you imagine. They may change and grow, but they should change from a base that you know, and for some reason. If you have them behaving out of character, you should know it and have a reason for it - even if your reason is just "I thought it would be fun" - rather than have it be an accidental result of not knowing the character in the first place. Otherwise, there's no point calling them those characters.

That's my opinion, anyway. I hope you enjoy reading and discover a wealth of ideas from it.

Re: Here We Go....

Date: 2011-07-19 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sweetalison007.livejournal.com
When you are writing HP fanfic what you need to do at least its what I think is not to replicate JKR' s style and writing patterns but to incorporate your interpretation and charachterisation there is I believe a lot of scope of original improvisations plot develpements OCs are fine as long as they contribut to plot developement and synthesize harmoniously they should not be introduced without rhyme or reason and as MelusinaHP has conjectured uts extremely difficult and also tiring to meticulously stick to JKR'S charachterisations also I add there is no need to do so for example in canon JKR has shown Harry and other Gryyfindors to be extremely prejudiced and judgemental to Slytherins it will be IMPOSSIBLE therefore to write H/D if you maintain faithfully charachterisations .... but yes it does help if you read the books as it saves a lot of anomalies like getting the names wrong and such silly mistakes also having an intimate knowledge helps in writing as ultimately the fanfic you write will be based on them.... so I say read the books for technical matters like getting the facts right and not for emulating JKR'S style

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