(no subject)

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

I was going to make it all one big post and then realized that although similar they really are very different ideas.

Writing fanfic on LJ, is an interesting sort of litmus test for the above question. Yes, I know comments don't count for everything, but they do make a huge difference in how you might feel about your chances of getting that golden ticket to Hollywood, or the publishing contract. When you consistently, in each and every fest you've ever written in, no matter 10, 20, 30 or more participants, receive the lowest number of comments - and i do mean the lowest by sometimes as many as 1/2 of the next lowest, it sort of does something to you. You try to shrug it off, you try to not do the comparison thing, but you do. Then you sort cry, sometimes internally, sometimes for real. Then you swear you'll never write again.

I've done that numerous times, which a lot of you know. The last time was over this past Christmas, after a fic I wrote pretty much died in the water. I admit I was in a very emotional place at the time, and that may have had a major affect. Bottom line, I not only swore I would never write again, I actually spent the next three days, completely destroying and deleting everything I could find, and get my hands on that I had ever written. Every computer’s hard drive, every flash drive, every post, every archive I’d ever posted it, all deleted, wiped clean. Then I took my notebooks, of rough drafts, finished works, betaed and unbetaed. Every started but unfinished fic, every note, every bit of research ripped in to shred and deposited in the trash. Every magazine I'd ever bought and saved on writing was also thrown in the trash and at least 1/2 of the books were traded at the used book store. (I didn't do them all, as too much money had been spent.) It was drastic i know, but I also know I needed it. I felt cleansed and purged. It was glorious.

But the urge returned and slowly I'm returning. A prompt in Glompfest caught my eye, and I wrote for it. A dear dear wonderful friend had a prompt in rare-pair I thought I could do, so I wrote for it. And a fan_fair prompt intrigued me so, well you guessed it - I wrote it. I'm trying really hard to write for the giftee and tryng to write what makes me happy and in the style that I hear in my head. A style that drives most of my betas a bit batty, because it's seldom grammatically correct. I'm trying to let go of expectations or even wants, because that way lies madness.

Now, I've learned to never say never, but my new goal is to write it, put it out there for a short period of time, one week, two weeks, maybe three but that's doubtful, and then delete it. Like the Buddhist Sand Painting the goal is to create it and then let it go. Now, of course anything written for a fest is the property of the fest and does not apply here. I do not expect to ever cross post anything I write, there will no archiving of any fics. Anything written for fests will be linked on this journal one time, it will remain in the fest community and will not be posted on this journal. Anything I write as a bd, or Christmas, or as thank you will be gifted to them and they can do with it what they want.

I realize this all seems rather drastic and severe, but honestly I'm just trying to keep the feeling of lightness when I destroyed it all this past Christmas. Sometimes I miss having it all, but mostly I don't. Creating and writing makes me happy, worrying about the results makes me insane.

Comments

[khalulu]

Well, and then there is the question of why do art, and how mass media has changed so many people from participants to spectators. For most of human history you had to be physically present where the music or dance was begin performed to see or hear it, so there was room for a lot more performers, and more people joined in as participants - that was the entertainment. (Which fandom is sort of getting back to.) What does "worthy of a place" mean? Personally I think it's good for us to create, not just all consume the creations of a few other people. You don't have to be the best, to find value in doing something. Also, artists can develop and improve. It sounds like you're working on that, since you mention a lot of books and articles on writing. I think one of the best things to do is read (not just fanfic) and think about what you think makes a piece good. Develop your ear for language and story-telling. People have very different tastes, and to some extent it may be finding your audience.
But I do understand it's really frustrating to put a lot of work into something you want to share and get very little response. So, like others said, try to find someone else to ask, preferably someone whose taste you trust. Then ask not "do you think it's good? Do I have talent?" but "What should I try to work on first?" Plot, characterization, style? What does it need? Humor? Emotional plausibility and depth? More interesting dialogue? More interesting events happening? More careful or vivid word choice? And maybe tell them what made you want to write the piece in the first place, what the core of it is for you, and ask how to make that come through more strongly. And if you're writing sex scenes, read Resonant's How to Write a Sex Scene. Also, faithwood has some excellent advice and resources at Writing Fanfiction Good luck!

[celestlyn.livejournal.com]

There are so many reasons why a fic does not get read. Some fests have so many fics that it's useless to try to keep up and one ends up reading only the stories by authors they are familiar with or just reading rec's from trusted friends. There are so very many fests and one simply can't keep up with everything that is out there. Also, there is a skill to writing a title and a summary that will draw people in and get them to click on your story. I don't stick with a story that is just not grabbing in the first few paragraphs.

I also agree with ginger veela. Making the corrections on your fic that the beta has noted is important. And even more important is learning to write it correctly and not depending on the beta to always fix the same mistakes. It's a learning process. You just keep going and keep learning.

[white-serpent.livejournal.com]

We'll leave the issues of gift fics aside. Those are written for one specific person, and it really shouldn't matter if they appeal to anyone beyond the specific person they're a gift for. Other people may like them, or may not.

For everything else: what are you trying to accomplish? (Blunt question, but important.)

Creating and writing makes you happy. Why post at all? If you're posting in the hopes of getting critical feedback, you need to be very blunt about it (many people will not give any sort of criticism anymore because a lot of people get extremely upset by anything except glowing praise.) If you're posting to be "part of the community" and get praise... that's dependent on your audience playing along, and it's not something you can control. And, hell-- you can be part of the community by commenting on other people's fic or art, posting about canon, or...

Do you have a goal that you are working toward? (Do you want to be professionally published? Do you want to be a popular fan author? Do you just want to write something?) If you want to be professionally published, you need a series of ideas, total dedication to producing content, persistence in submitting the damned thing again and again, and willingness to make massive and swift changes to the content if an editor tells you to. You're going to need to do that again and again, and you're going to need to be thick-skinned. If you want to be a popular fan author, you need to belong to a large community, write what that community likes, and produce a whole lot of content. Being a regular and entertaining blogger helps. Do you just want to write? Don't post. If response (or lack of it) causes you stress, then it's counterproductive.

but they do make a huge difference in how you might feel about your chances of getting that golden ticket to Hollywood, or the publishing contract.

I think that fan communities come with the expectation that everyone wants to be a professional author-- and maybe a lot of people dream about having some book sit at the top of the bestseller list. That's not under your control.

Some things are, yes-- if you never actually work on writing your novel, it's never going to get published. If you never submit it anywhere, you're never going to get published... But you can do all of that and never get published, too. Someone judges that there's no market for your book, or that your execution is poor, or or or. Yes, there are some people who are just offered a book contract out of the blue. Those people are already famous for something else they've worked at (acting, say), and they're given a lot of help because it's judged that the market for their book will be large enough to justify it.

People focus a lot on the craft of writing-- "You write really well! You should be published!" or "This published work is crap! I could do better!" But writing is also a business-- largely a business. Writing fanfiction is an opportunity to hone some aspects of the craft of writing, but you have to be willing to accept that you may get no response (again and again) or negative responses and keep pushing on anyway.

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

I've never had anyone, not publicly thank me for a gift, but I did have one, who dissed it later in their own journal. Which I thought was a bit tacky.

Now I guess i should have been more specific about the grammar and beta comment. I always listen to my betas and generally choose to follow their advice. There are times when I decide for stylistic reasons to leave the sentence fragments, or the run ons. I am choosing in those times, but generally I listen and obey. What is confusing is when i have more than one beta and I get more than one answer on how to correctly punctuate a paragraph.

I know that the grammar thing is a HUGE deal for a lot, maybe even most people. It never has been for me, it wasn't until I started attempting to write fan fic that I ever thought about it at all. Some people struggle with math, I struggle with proper punctuation, more so than the grammar part. All through elementary, middle, high, and Uni, I made C- and D's on the SPaG parts and A's on content. I just never understood why it was so important.

I agree with you about improving through effort and accepting criticism, which I think I really do very well. But maybe I'm just not improving enough, or maybe there's a limit as to how much improving you can do, if the talent just isn't there.

You've given me a lot to think about, and I do appreciate it so much!

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

***Which fandom is sort of getting back to*** yes!

***You don't have to be the best, to find value in doing something. Also, artists can develop and improve. It sounds like you're working on that, since you mention a lot of books and articles on writing.*** I am trying really hard to get to the simple enjoyment of the creation, and i do succeed at that until the last story i wrote is posted and lays there lonely and alone withering on the vine of being passed over day after day. Then I must admit I have a bit of a pity party.

**So, like others said, try to find someone else to ask, preferably someone whose taste you trust. Then ask not "do you think it's good? Do I have talent?" but "What should I try to work on first?" Plot, characterization, style? What does it need? Humor?** I've tried this as well, through various critique groups and just asking people who's writing I admired. I usually got either the same non specific answers or no answer at all, meaning they ignored me. So maybe the no answer was really their answer. If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all.

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

I understand about the why some, and about their being so many, but to consistently always be the bottom. I think there's more to it than that. Of course, I think perhaps I should use that fact to give me the answer I think is staring me in the face, but I've been refusing to see it.

I did give more clarication to ginger_veela. I do pay attention to my betas and I follow their advice 95% of the time, but sometimes I hear a section in my head a certain way and I choose to go with it. It is how I want it to read, it's not me being stubborn or refusing to listen, It's a conscious choice. The betas I use have grown to know this and I think understand it, even if they don't always agree.

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

Wow! so many good and thought provoking things to reply to here.

I've often thought about the "Why post at all?" question. And I think it comes down to wanting to share things with others. Wanting to get feedback and dialogue and conversation and all sorts of things from it. I love constructive criticism, if it's done with some degree of respect. but even in times past when i've asked those posts have been ignored. Or they've been answered and maybe I just didn't know how to do what they were telling me to do. "Show don't tell", okay. how do I do that?

In regards to some of the other things you ask or point out in the question on my goals, the answers are way too long and give way more information in to my personality quirks and confidence issues than I want to say or you want to hear, trust me on that.

I never thought much about being published but because of current employment situation (un) I've been thinking of it more and more. I realize it's probably just a pipe dream. So I don't know that I have any specific real long term goals, other than not having the fic with the least number on comments at least once.

Thanks so much for being so indepth on your feedback, questions, comments, and suggestions. I do appreciate it. I love a good discussion more than just about anything. But because I am a true introvert, it usually will take me several hours of thinking on it from all sides, to get back to you.

[white-serpent.livejournal.com]

"Show don't tell", okay. how do I do that?

1. Show: "Merlin curse it," Draco said, slamming the door.
Tell: Draco was angry.

2. Show: Harry drew in a deep breath then let it out in an explosive burst. "Look, Ginny. I get it. I do. But I don't have any choice."
Tell: Harry was frustrated.

Sometimes this is good, and sometimes it gets in the way. It's a question of the way you want the story to flow. You can accomplish a lot by showing-- it can enhance your characterization and immerse the reader in the action (which makes the story more exciting/relatable). It also slows the action down and places emphasis on that scene. (Look how much faster "Harry was frustrated" is to read than the action and that line of dialogue with all the full stops in it!) If this particular scene is necessary to have in the fic but showing things wrecks your story arc, telling is the way to go. Too much showing and people lose interest because the story's too slow. Too much telling and people lose interest because there's no action.

Same thing goes for the standard "avoid adverbs" advice. If you're constantly attempting to inject your description into the fic by using adverbs, you're missing a lot of opportunities. OTOH, sometimes the adverb conveys exactly what you want and a longer description of the action is slowing things down.

If people are saying "Show, don't tell," then this means one of two things: (1) it's general advice they've been given on how to write and they're passing it on to you (and now you know what it means if you didn't before; big deal) or (2) you're rushing through scenes that should stand out (important).

From your comments to g_v above:
There are times when I decide for stylistic reasons to leave the sentence fragments, or the run ons.

Possibly reasonable. Your prose needs to serve the story and the scene. The trick is figuring out how you need the story to move, and how to make your style serve that need. Fragments are choppy and slow the reader down, and can serve to emphasize a particular phrase. Too many fragments, though, and the style stands out more than the story.

Here, comments mean one of two things: (1) fragments/run-ons are grammatically incorrect (true, but not of great consequence) or (2) the fragments/run-ons are standing out enough that the style is distracting from the story (important).

[white-serpent.livejournal.com]

One more thing on "Show, don't tell." Sometimes this actually reflects an issue with characterization. For example, we may be told that Harry is an Auror who is highly dedicated to his job and constantly working. In the action we're shown, however, he's always cutting out of work early, taking long lunches, etc. (This is not a problem unique to fanfiction; it happens constantly in published novels.) In that case, the issue isn't specific passages having the wrong pace, but that what we are told about a character doesn't mesh with how he acts.

Thus, you would need to inject things like Harry working late, or maybe Harry being talked into taking a long lunch just this once... but all the while feeling guilty about it because he's supposed to be working OR maybe having his mind constantly snap back to a case he's working on. If the long lunch is still required for plot purposes, it needs to be done in a way that shows the things we were told about Harry are true. Does this make sense?

"Show, don't tell" isn't particularly useful. If people said, "This scene moves too quickly" or "This character's actions don't match what I was told about him", you'd probably have a better idea of what to fix.

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

All very good advice. Most of the problem I seem to have, and I seriously doubt I'm alone on this, is while I understand the concepts mentioned above, it is the application of them in a fic that stimmies me.

But I do think the way you've broken in down with actual examples may provide some strong assistance.

I try not to use too many fragments, or at least to correct most of them. There are a few. I never thought of them as potential distracting. That's a good thing to know.

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

***"Show, don't tell" isn't particularly useful. If people said, "This scene moves too quickly" or "This character's actions don't match what I was told about him", you'd probably have a better idea of what to fix.****

That is exceeedingly true!

[amorette.livejournal.com]

Firstly, comments are not everything, like you said. If you are basing your worth by comment count, you may as well admit that you are writing for a popularity contest - as opposed to writing for YOU and your thoughts and opinions about the characters and using writing to explore the themes that most concern you as a person. But with that said, I understand the annoyance (is that a word?) of not getting comments on something you THOUGHT WAS SO GREAT!!!

Can I be completely honest? And I don't mean to insult anyone. But, maybe you need to use a beta who will be more blunt with you about what is or is not working. I am not trying to be mean by saying that your current beta is "bad" or anything, but maybe they just aren't right for YOU. Everyone has a different style in editing, and you need to find a relationship with a beta where they will tell you what is wrong and where you will actually listen and not get offended or discouraged but take their advice as a challenge to improve. Or, use multiple betas for one story in order to get a more general picture and multiple opinion.

I am not trying to say that "this is the beta's fault!!!" but I am just suggesting this as one potential solution to your problem. If you want to become a more "popular" fanfic writer, a lot of compromise has to come from you as well, since now your goal is essentially to please everyone, or, the majority of people.

GOOD LUCK <3 and keep writing. Don't give up, no matter how many times you try, because writing fanfic is supposed to be something you enjoy, something that is fun for YOU <3

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I am working on releasing the comment count phobia, and I'm doing much better. It's just ALWAYS being at the bottom of the pile really, really sucks. And I very much have come to realise that I have a different pov on what I consider good and what's not. Some of the most beloved fics in fandom have left me absolutely cold, while some of the ones I've adored have been ultimately left out in the rain to rot, comment wise. All that does go into my understanding. But there still does remain the question of why no love on my fics.

i actually have 2-3 betas, one is fairly easy going and seems to really very much enjoy my writing, we have similar styles and taste. And she's effing brilliant. The 2nd one is much more critical and points out pretty much every little detail and suggests ways to fix. She too is effing brilliant. Both of these writers are on their way to being published. I listen to and try to do as much as I can to follow both of their suggestions. The third one, which I don't use as much-due to their being too busy, is more like the 2nd one. She is a published writer, or will be once the thing is actually published.

All that being said, using multiple betas can be confusing trying to satisfy eveyonees wants, yet still at the same time keeping it being the story i want to tell, keeping it mine and not someone else's I hope this all makes sense.

Thank you so much for your comments, the advice is really helpful.